Sunday, September 17, 2017
Issue #548: Astro-Video, Slight Return
I’m not talking about new-fangled video observing, “electronically
assisted astronomy” as the denizens of a certain contentious forum on a famous
(in a small amateur astronomy sort of way) website call it. I’m not talking
about using digital CCD/CMOS cameras with short exposures to simulate video
observing. I am talking about real-deal
video observing with analog video cams.
That doesn’t mean I don’t like the new style digital astro-video cameras. I’ve reviewed a
couple of them for Sky & Telescope Test
Reports and was impressed. Their strength is that they are far more
able to deliver pretty, smooth-looking images than the analog cams were. And
those images sure are easier to get into a computer for manipulation than analog video was. You no
longer need one of those blasted frame-grabbers; just plug a USB cable into the camera and laptop and you are ready to go. It ain’t all gravy, though. Analog cameras like the Mallincam Xtreme are still more sensitive than almost
anything else.
Those were some of my thoughts as I pulled my Xtreme from
her dusty case and mounted her on a telescope for the first time in nearly
three years. I was in a hurry to get some images for a magazine article, and was
pretty sure video would be the quickest way to do that. Which is just one of old-fashioned
style video’s pluses. But why, then, had my Xtreme sat unused for so long? Maybe because I'd rarely observed with anything but video when I was doing the
The Herschel Project, which I began in earnest in 2009, was my quest to view all 2500 of
the deep sky objects recorded by William and Caroline Herschel. It was the
biggest observing campaign of my life, and finishing it in about three years as
I planned meant night after night of pedal-to-the-metal observing, much of it
with video, was required.
While I could have done all, or nearly all, of the H objects
visually with my larger scopes, that would only be true given excellent dark skies. At my
club site, I needed video to reliably bring home all the small and dim galaxies
that infest the list. That’s why I started using video for the Project, anyhow.
Frankly, I became so fond of observing the Herschels with my Mallincam Xtreme that I began using
it even under dark skies, like in Chiefland.
For a typical Chiefland Astronomy Village run, I’d
set up my NexStar 11GPS, Mallincam (Stellacam in the beginning), and sit under
a tent canopy until three or four in the morning, controlling camera and
telescope with a laptop PC running SkyTools 3, NexRemote, and the Mallican
control software. I considered it a poor evening if I didn’t log and record at
least 100 objects. In a typical three-night CAV visit I could easily bag 300 of the list’s faint fuzzies.
So, I basically wound up doing nothing but video during the over three years of the Herschel Project. It was fun, but after that much of it I was glad when it was “fun is fun, but done is done.” After crossing the finish line, I wanted something different, which turned out to be DSLR imaging most of the time and visual the rest of the time. There’s also no doubt the changes I’ve been through personally over the last three years have meant that, while I’m still an enthusiastic amateur astronomer, I’m quite not as hardcore as I was during the go-go days of the Project and not as apt to set up the ton of gear a video run requires.
So, I basically wound up doing nothing but video during the over three years of the Herschel Project. It was fun, but after that much of it I was glad when it was “fun is fun, but done is done.” After crossing the finish line, I wanted something different, which turned out to be DSLR imaging most of the time and visual the rest of the time. There’s also no doubt the changes I’ve been through personally over the last three years have meant that, while I’m still an enthusiastic amateur astronomer, I’m quite not as hardcore as I was during the go-go days of the Project and not as apt to set up the ton of gear a video run requires.
Anyhow, as I mounted the old Xtreme on the rear cell of the
C8, some great memories of the height of the Project came flooding back. All
those evenings at Chiefland counting Herschel galaxies by the score in places where
I’d never seen a single galaxy, like the wilds of Boötes.
The more I thought about it, though, the more astronomy
video seemed to be mostly a creature of the Herschel Project for me—even though
I’d become infatuated with the idea six years before the Project began, in
2003, at that year’s Astronomical Convention held in Nashville. There was a
Stellacam and Meade 10-inch LX200 SCT set up in the parking lot one night and I
couldn’t believe what they pulled in from orange-pink skies near the Nashville airport. I just had to have a
Stellacam.
I got one, too, shortly thereafter, and while I used it a
fair amount at first, that was just at first. It was soon back in its case for
extended periods. I couldn’t find a use for it. The video camera seemed
neither fish nor fowl. Lacking the personal and immediate magic of visual
observing, but not offering the more finished pictures of “real” astro-cams.
That was the way it was until I started in on the Herschel Project.
When I did, everything finally clicked video-wise. As above, I could observe
dozens and dozens of objects every clear night, literally tearing through the
2500 DSO list. No, they didn’t look as good as they would have in, say, a long
exposure DSLR image, but, frankly, many of those objects, as mentioned above,
are bland, small galaxies, and don’t have a lot of pretty to them anyway. As
opposed to visual? Man could I go deep
with video.
I’d known that even before the H-Project began, like the night at the Deep South Regional Star Gaze when
I began imaging Hickson galaxy groups and found my C11 and Stellacam (which was
limited to 10-second exposures) could show any Hickson group member visible in
the Digitized Sky Survey Plates, which were taken with the 48-inch Schmidt
Camera at Mt. Palomar. Yeah, I was going deep, real deep, but without a 30-inch
telescope to haul around (and pay for).
When my desire for color led me to replace the Stellacam
with a Mallincam Xtreme about of a third of the way through the Herschel
Project, I found just how deep I could go. A 1-minute exposure would take me to
the realm of quasars, easily recording the ancient objects (see the quasar
video at the bottom of the page, which I did in 2015 just before I put the Xtreme away) as well as
the little sprites of PGC and UGC galaxies that haunted nearly every field.
Don’t get me wrong; I wasn’t just seeing the ferociously dim, either. There was also detail, plenty of detail, and not just in brighter objects. As the Project was winding down, I hunted Arp (peculiar) galaxies for a while. Not only could I see them, I could almost always at least make out a trace of the odd details that led Halton ARP to add them to his list.
But then the H-Project was over. In addition to me wanting prettier
pictures when I took pictures, there was also that “less hardcore” take on our
avocation. There is no denying analog video is “stuff” intensive. You have
multiple cables, a PC, power supplies, and, if you don’t want to involve frame
grabbers, you’ll need a separate monitor to view the video and a DVR of some
kind to record your objects. The times I wanted to pull out that amount of gear
became fewer and fewer as the H Project receded farther and farther into the
rearview mirror.
And there things remained. Oh, I did do a bit of playing
with the excellent little Revolution video imager,
which I still think is a wonderful buy, and is about as self-contained at kit
as you can get, but it had literally been years since the Xtreme gathered
photons. Not since that quasar run during my final spring Chiefland expedition
in early 2015.
Which brings us to today. What did I think of the Mallincam Xtreme
mounted on the back of the Edge 800 now? Some of the old annoyances remained. I
don’t like frame grabbers, so I had to drag out a monitor (my old portable DVD
player) and a video switch to route signals to it or to the DVR as desired—the
camera doesn’t have enough drive to allow it to be hooked to both at the same
time without an amplifier. And wouldn’t you know it? The first video cable I
hooked between camera and switch turned out to be bad. So it goes in the analog
world.
Those were the annoyances, however. The strengths of video
were also on display. I was correct about how easy it was to get recognizable
pictures quickly. Once I had everything properly hooked up and the bad video
cable banished to the trash, it was a snap to produce usable images.
At first, I was afraid I wouldn’t remember how to run the Mallincam
control software on the laptop, but it all came back rather quickly. It’s
pretty user friendly as esoteric programs go, and I used it a heck of a lot over
the years of the Herschel Project. After just a little fiddling around
with the settings I was getting surprisingly nice video pictures.
The images I needed for the article safely on the DVR’s SD
card, I had time for a little fun before the clouds rolled in, and pointed at
some of the late summer DSOs sinking in the west (I absolutely love the new
Losmandy’s Gemini 2 goto system). No, the video pictures didn’t have the look
of carefully processed DSLR photos, but you know what? They were not bad at
all. The stars weren’t grain-of-sand pinpoints, no, but there was nice color,
and the frames coming over were not nearly as grainy and noisy as I
“remembered.”
So, the final verdict on analog astro-video. REAL
astro-video, if you will? I think it still has a place for those of us who own analog
cameras, or who are interested in an inexpensive set up like the Revolution
Video Imager (a mere 299.00 including a monitor and the other accessories you
will need to get going). For those who don’t
have an analog camera and want a top-of-the-line one like the Xtreme? Not so
much.
The problem is that the base Xtreme is $1300.00, more than some
of the new digital video setups (including the Mallincam SkyRaider DS2.3+ and the Infinity
from Atik). The premier Mallincam now, the
Xterminator, is over $1700.00. While these analog cameras are definitely more
sensitive than their digital sisters, that sensitivity does come at the expense
of more noise, smaller sensor chips, and images that are more difficult to
process. The digicams are actually quite sensitive and more than usable for
near real-time video style observing, but they also can be used to produce respectable
long integration images.
I do have an
Xtreme, however, it still works every bit as good as it did the day I put it
away years ago, and I doubt it will stay in its case for another three years.
I’m not going to take on the Herschels again, but when I want to capture
something way far, far away on the edge of the Great Out There, the Xtreme, the
Revolution, and their analog sisters are still the winners hands down.
Note: You can view these videos full-screen by clicking "Youtube."
Note 2: Have you heard there is now a place on Facebook where you can buy and sell astro-gear? There is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1873482632865645/ It's administered by the good folk at TPI Astro...check it out.
Note: You can view these videos full-screen by clicking "Youtube."
Note 2: Have you heard there is now a place on Facebook where you can buy and sell astro-gear? There is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1873482632865645/ It's administered by the good folk at TPI Astro...check it out.
Comments:
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So once again, so to, speak you've give me inspiration. From suggesting I get a C8 to even your book, the advice you have given has always been very good and kept me viewing. Last year I only did about 4 sessions and with all of Oregon burning this year (smoke even in Portland is very bad), I've only been out one night and that was with my 20 x 80's and one day (eclipse). I had not been following new astro stuff, but the Revolution Video Imager now with a fast star type hookup for $400 is just what I needed to observe in my yard and a nearby state park.
Still have not replaced my LXD75 because for imaging in my yard its just fine with 30-40 second stacking. Once again the C8 show just how versatile it can be. The Revolution Video Imager seems like a good fix for an old guy who dumped the club because it didn't fit my needs. I am thinking that my C8 and either FR or the FS adapter will give me a lot of latitude for using this inexpensive device. And because my M43 setup (Panasonic Gx8 and PL100-400) is so light I could use both at the same time. My goal for 2018 is to actually engage again and the voyager at $400 with the fast star adapter seems like a match for my modest equipment.
Thanks again Rod, in case you ever thought your posts did not make a difference.
Still have not replaced my LXD75 because for imaging in my yard its just fine with 30-40 second stacking. Once again the C8 show just how versatile it can be. The Revolution Video Imager seems like a good fix for an old guy who dumped the club because it didn't fit my needs. I am thinking that my C8 and either FR or the FS adapter will give me a lot of latitude for using this inexpensive device. And because my M43 setup (Panasonic Gx8 and PL100-400) is so light I could use both at the same time. My goal for 2018 is to actually engage again and the voyager at $400 with the fast star adapter seems like a match for my modest equipment.
Thanks again Rod, in case you ever thought your posts did not make a difference.
For me I just can not go back to 640 X 480 resolution. It just does not compare to 720P or 1080P of the digital cams now available let alone my 6000 X 4000 cheap Nikon D3400.
Pat Utah
Pat Utah
# posted by 
: 12:37 PM
: 12:37 PM
A nice post for many of your readers, who I'm sure followed you through the epic Herschel Project on this blog. It was your blog that inspired me to get into video astronomy, but I got started with ZWO's digital 224mc instead of the Revolution or Mallincam analogue cameras. I've got a go-to altaz, so digital cam + sharpcap makes it easy to overcome field rotation for exposures longer than 5 sec and up to 3-5 min at a time.
# posted by : 4:18 AM
: 4:18 AM
Excellent article and thanks for revisiting those true video ccd camera.
Just a few pointer to make about the MallinCam Xterminator.
The size of the sensor is 1/2" in size compared to other 299.99 models offered by other supplier who is only 1/3" and made of plastic. The Xterminator use a ceramic type ccd sensor of class 1. We also make a chamber filled with premium Argon Gas then use Aerogel inside the camera, that's a world first in a production astronomy camera. That not cheap to create.
About the noise you refer to. Interline ccd sensor used in the Xterminator have the lowest noise
on the market in a true video ccd camera with the internal DSP chip. Just check http://nsnlive.com on occasion and see me broadcast live with a Xterminator live, not imaging.
Another comment would be that MallinCam also produce a 299.99 video astro Kit.
Called the MallinCam Micro. The other who offer a 5 seconds exposure, we offer a 17 seconds exposure
with selection of up to 85 seconds stacked image to keep noise down,
and a broadcast quality HD 8" monitor among other neat accessories as well.
The same kit offers a choice of ccd sensor at the time of purchase, either a ICX672 EXview HAD II sensor or a ICX810 Super HAD sensor.
Thank you.
Kindest Regards,
Rock Mallin
Just a few pointer to make about the MallinCam Xterminator.
The size of the sensor is 1/2" in size compared to other 299.99 models offered by other supplier who is only 1/3" and made of plastic. The Xterminator use a ceramic type ccd sensor of class 1. We also make a chamber filled with premium Argon Gas then use Aerogel inside the camera, that's a world first in a production astronomy camera. That not cheap to create.
About the noise you refer to. Interline ccd sensor used in the Xterminator have the lowest noise
on the market in a true video ccd camera with the internal DSP chip. Just check http://nsnlive.com on occasion and see me broadcast live with a Xterminator live, not imaging.
Another comment would be that MallinCam also produce a 299.99 video astro Kit.
Called the MallinCam Micro. The other who offer a 5 seconds exposure, we offer a 17 seconds exposure
with selection of up to 85 seconds stacked image to keep noise down,
and a broadcast quality HD 8" monitor among other neat accessories as well.
The same kit offers a choice of ccd sensor at the time of purchase, either a ICX672 EXview HAD II sensor or a ICX810 Super HAD sensor.
Thank you.
Kindest Regards,
Rock Mallin
Rod:
After doing some research and checking with the CFO, I've decided to with the ZWO ASI 178 MC and a windows small lap top. Again thank you for giving me an idea to get back into observing Rather than just shooting images (which I have not done over 1.5 years).
Greatly appreciated.
After doing some research and checking with the CFO, I've decided to with the ZWO ASI 178 MC and a windows small lap top. Again thank you for giving me an idea to get back into observing Rather than just shooting images (which I have not done over 1.5 years).
Greatly appreciated.
Uncle Rod,
I am writing on behalf of my daughter who is in search of guidance on her science fair project. She used our Meade 8" lightswitch ACF SCT and a simple point and shoot Canon camera through an eyepiece using a orion camera holder to try to quantify the effect of a Celestron UHC/LPR Filter on photographing DSO. We had only had the scope a few months as I had purchased it used to satisfy my life long dream of owning a telescope. I chose it for its ease of use, small relative size yet high power. I had no intention of getting into astrophotography or else I would have chosen differently. I had taken shots of Jupiter and Saturn with no trouble. So, I naively encouraged her to take the jump. Boy, did we have a lot to learn. We live just outside of Richmond , VA which means extreme light pollution is an issue. She photographed 8 DSO and 2 stars over the course of a month and calculated the average size of DSO or the number of extra stars visible in a single raw exposure. She started with 10 second exposures and then moved to 20 second exposures after we realized that the mount and camera could handle it and that at f-10 the telescope was not getting enough light to the camera in a short exposures. We tried exposures longer than 20 seconds but the camera could not handle it as it generated a huge amount of electronic noise (Pink banding) creeped into the image. She won her category at the regional science fair and was invited to speak at the local astronomy club that also gave her a prize. My daughter wants to use the telescope again this year for her science fair experiment. Our funds are extremely tight but we are considering using an inexpensive camera by ZWO like the one you discussed on your blog in September 2015.
Could a camera like that be used for live views on a laptop for showing the non-astronomers in the family what we are "looking" at?
The telescope came with a Meade 6.3 focal reducer. We have the following eyepieces gosky - 40mm, meade 4000 - 26mm, Celestron Luminos 15mm & 7mm. Aside ( I love the 15mm) huge fov with good magnification most nights. However, we could not use either Celestron eyepieces with the camera. I also have a meade t-ring adapter that came with the scope. I can send more details of my daughter's first experiment including sample images. Any advice about a next step would be appreciated. Also, I have a macintosh laptop and I have been unsuccessful in getting it to talk to the telescope any advice? Please use my gmail address to communicate with us - Thanks, The Craig Family - craigwe@gmail.com
I am writing on behalf of my daughter who is in search of guidance on her science fair project. She used our Meade 8" lightswitch ACF SCT and a simple point and shoot Canon camera through an eyepiece using a orion camera holder to try to quantify the effect of a Celestron UHC/LPR Filter on photographing DSO. We had only had the scope a few months as I had purchased it used to satisfy my life long dream of owning a telescope. I chose it for its ease of use, small relative size yet high power. I had no intention of getting into astrophotography or else I would have chosen differently. I had taken shots of Jupiter and Saturn with no trouble. So, I naively encouraged her to take the jump. Boy, did we have a lot to learn. We live just outside of Richmond , VA which means extreme light pollution is an issue. She photographed 8 DSO and 2 stars over the course of a month and calculated the average size of DSO or the number of extra stars visible in a single raw exposure. She started with 10 second exposures and then moved to 20 second exposures after we realized that the mount and camera could handle it and that at f-10 the telescope was not getting enough light to the camera in a short exposures. We tried exposures longer than 20 seconds but the camera could not handle it as it generated a huge amount of electronic noise (Pink banding) creeped into the image. She won her category at the regional science fair and was invited to speak at the local astronomy club that also gave her a prize. My daughter wants to use the telescope again this year for her science fair experiment. Our funds are extremely tight but we are considering using an inexpensive camera by ZWO like the one you discussed on your blog in September 2015.
Could a camera like that be used for live views on a laptop for showing the non-astronomers in the family what we are "looking" at?
The telescope came with a Meade 6.3 focal reducer. We have the following eyepieces gosky - 40mm, meade 4000 - 26mm, Celestron Luminos 15mm & 7mm. Aside ( I love the 15mm) huge fov with good magnification most nights. However, we could not use either Celestron eyepieces with the camera. I also have a meade t-ring adapter that came with the scope. I can send more details of my daughter's first experiment including sample images. Any advice about a next step would be appreciated. Also, I have a macintosh laptop and I have been unsuccessful in getting it to talk to the telescope any advice? Please use my gmail address to communicate with us - Thanks, The Craig Family - craigwe@gmail.com
Hi:
Yes, an inexpensive ZWO is certainly viable now for near live viewing, especially when combined with Sharpcap's on the fly stacking. Congratulations to your daughter!
Yes, an inexpensive ZWO is certainly viable now for near live viewing, especially when combined with Sharpcap's on the fly stacking. Congratulations to your daughter!
I'm new to the blog so be patient please.
Rod you use a program in your computer to achieve alignment. I use an app on my cell phone and have had much success with it. It is called Skeye, I upgraded to the pro version called Skeye Pro. It has planetarium software built in that can make your telescope slew to the object in question.
Terry
Rod you use a program in your computer to achieve alignment. I use an app on my cell phone and have had much success with it. It is called Skeye, I upgraded to the pro version called Skeye Pro. It has planetarium software built in that can make your telescope slew to the object in question.
Terry
Unk, I know this blog is old so hopefully you see this. I currently have a Revolution Imager and am wondering if it is worth it to upgrade to a used Mallincam Xtreme that I can get for a deal. Will I see a big visual difference in resolution or image size between them to justify the cost? I use an 8SE on the stock mount. Let me know your thoughts.
JT
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JT
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